Many of you met Dennis and saw his hostlers at the NRA Convention Dennis happened to also be driving down with Jay and I from the Northeast. On the drive down Dennis was talking about how he had just ordered a Kimber SIS Pro (which is Kimber-speak for their 4″ 1911, kinda like a Colt Commander, but not quite).
Nice looking gun, I’m not a huge fan of the slide serrations, but with anything radical like that there will be people who love it, and people who hate it.
Dennis was excited, and I mentioned that I had heard from a few people who know a thing-or-two about 1911s had found about them. That being said you’ll see in the comments and the forum threads there are lots of people who say their modern Kimbers run great, and Dennis had already dropped his money on the gun, so I wished him the best and decided to not be a Debbie downer.
Well sadly Dennis’ gun is yet another Kimber Lemon. Go read the whole thing. Thankfully it appears the gun can be fixed to a running condition. Still for a gun at that price point, and given that his Desert Eagle 1911 cost half as much, and runs like a champ (also I got to handle his 1911 at the convention and its a really tight gun with a superb trigger), no repair should be needed at all. As Dennis Says: “My first…and LAST Kimber”.
Jay also covered this post and dropped this money quote:
The problems he’s been having with the Kimber are minor and annoying but not critical; however this is exactly the kind of thing that lends credence to the “1911s are finicky and you can’t rely on them”.
I would add that and the 100% GI pattern 1911s that were never designed to run or feed on ANYTHING but GI-issue 230gr Hard-ball ammo. I’ll note that the first 1911 gunsmiths found ways to safely modify the platform to feed and run on just about any ammo available, and modern 1911 makers have incorporated these modifications into their off-the-shelf design.
Jay also mentions that his S&W 1911 ran like a champ at less price. I’ll add that mine also run flawlessly, and I trust my life with them.
On an upside you can now get holsters made for 4″ 1911 from Dragon Leatherworks.
I can’t say “All Kimbers suck and they won’t run”, because some do. What I will say is lots of Kimbers don’t run out of the box, and may need repairs or replacement parts, and do encountered severe problems after high round counts. At the price that Kimber charges for their guns you could do a lot better. That being said, for the time being Dennis’ Kimber seems to be running with some fairly easy modifications and parts swaps, so if you see a solid used model, and the price looks right even with a few hundred in gunsmith work, that might be a good idea.
But overall Colt, Springfield Armory, or S&W are very solid choices at a better price point.
This is my shocked face.
(Seriously, that blows. I advanced the theory this past weekend that Ron Cohen killed, not just Kimber and SIG, but the entire firearms industry… Given the profits he turned at Kimber by selling sizzle instead of steak, he’s become the new golden boy in gunland, and QC is tanking industry-wide as a consequence…)
The only problem is that most of the people I know who bought overpriced hype (like Kimbers, or H&K, Or Taurus, or even Hi-Point *you can’t talk to a Hi-Point rep without saying their Zamak Bricks don’t break EVER!!11*) are people new to the shooting world.
Sure lots of people buy 2-3 guns and call it good, but that’s not where the real money comes from. The real money comes from gun-junkies like us who have both a short list and a long list, and simply wait for the next paycheck to clear so we can track down our next PRECIOUS. 🙂
“The real money comes from gun-junkies like us who have both a short list and a long list…”
Yes and no.
I know people who own dozens of guns who aren’t really shooters. Sure, they drag five or six to the range once or twice a month, and run a box or two of ammo through each, and at that rate how long does it take for problems to show up?
Seriously: You could design a gun that crumbles to dust after firing the 500th shot, and maybe one or two people out of a hundred would ever find out about it. And when they reported the problem online, the other 98 would call them “bashers” and “haters” and “gun snobs”.
That is true. I’m actually surprised this thread hasn’t gotten flamed by MIMber fans pointing out that their Kimber (either of older vintage, or of low round-count) “Runs Flawlessly” so I’m a big jerk, and my supporting evedence should be discounted.
A good post on “owners versus shooters“.
I hadn’t heard that Kimber’s had excessive reports of poor quality. Of course, you get a lemon with everyone once in awhile.
A friend just purchased a 5″ SW 1911 and couldn’t get the darn thing to cycle. This was even with FMJ’s from several different brands, using a variety of mags. He’d recently bought his father the same model gun, and his worked flawlessly. He wound up sending it back to the factory for replacement.
I had a problem with the front sight post on my Ruger SR 556 when I first purchased it. It was so long that I couldn’t even zero. First I called Troy (who makes their front sight post) and they referred me to Ruger. Ruger said “Oh yeah, we heard that some of them were sent out a bit to long, we’ll get a new one out to you in the mail right away. Free of charge, of course.”
Another friend had also purchased an SR 556 and had the same problem. I told him what he needed to do, so he called Ruger and they told him “Sorry, that’s your problem.” I was frankly stunned by the difference in customer service experiences.
Thankfully Ruger sent me two new front sight posts, so I gave him my extra.
EVERY product will have lemons that slip under the radar. Its a sad fact of mass production. My father works for LL Bean seasonally and their employee stores is filled with factory seconds that got caught by QC that employees can buy for dirt cheap. I’m sure some of those seconds don’t get caught.
Same with your Friend’s S&W. From what I gather most S&W1911 run like champs, and certainly all I’ve shot have been 100% reliable with good magazines (my Stainless 5″ frequently would fail to cycle, but that was because of excessive feed lip spread on my McCormick magazines. With Wilsons it feeds perfectly, and what’s neat is when the Wilsons wear out for me they simply stop dropping free, but still feed 100%.
Also “first generation” items (be they guns, or be they cars) are often filled with bugs that made it through Beta Testing. I try never to buy a first generation ANYTHING, be it a car, or a gun, or a toaster.
But yeah it appears that “number of lemon guns that slip through QC” in the Kimber line-up is far more high than acceptable.
That does mean that you can buy a kimber and have it run like champ and need no work out of the box….but the chances of that appear to be MUCH lower than comparable models from Colt or Springfield.
Yuuuuup.
For my Kimbers it was extractor problems. Easy to fix, but I would not have accepted it new out of box, fortunately they were used.
If you’re looking to buy go used. The older ones have better quality, and the price is far more sensible. As Tam said, many of the used ones out there were hardly ever “used”.
Even if they didn’t have the qual issues they’re not worth what they retail for new. Especially if you get any extras… not that they offer any extras that are more than cosmetic (other than night sights and ambi safeties).
Also it appears from the QC issues I’ve read about unreliable kimbers are not unfixable. So if you can let some other poor bastard pay the depreciation for the honor to be the first jilted lover of the Kimber, you can pick it up and use the money saved to have a smith fix what the monkeys in Yonkers should have gotten right in the first place.
Yuuuuup.
The biggest problem with my 5″ one was an aftermarket buffer the previous owner put into it (that kept it from cycling properly). No fault Yonkers there.
However the extractor issue was their fault.
But both were easy enough to fix.
However, getting used does have some risks.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/10/checking-used-1911-with-purchase-in.html
Yuuup back atcha on that!
my 5″ stainless was previously owned by a shade-tree gunsmith. (not Don Dremel thankfully!) Its a blinding mix of random parts, and had some very odd stuff modified on it.
I did drop a few hundred on smith bills to get it fixed up.
I don’t regret any of it because #1. It taught me a LOT about what you DON’T want in a gun.
#2: In repairing the modifications made I have a gun that’s NICER than how it came out of Springfield, and its not “Stock” which is a no-n0 in the 1911 world!
It is my most favorite gun.
Indeed. (There no drawl this time).
Yah gotta be careful about dremeling. Someone mucks up the feed ramp and you’re left with an expensive parts-kit.
Customization is half the battle. I liked how despite all my parts work mine still looked like a Kimber “Custom” (that is Kimber Stock). But that changed when I swapped out the grips.
And nothing gets you as familiar with the workings of a gin as trying to debug the bugger. Which properly requires plenty of range time.