So the Brady Campaign is talking about this case.
Attorneys for the pawnshop had asked Iwasaki to dismiss the lawsuit, arguing that the pistol-grip shotgun that had been sold to the Talovic didn’t qualify for the federal restrictions and argued the weapon was a shotgun legally sold to an 18-year-old. The pawnshop attorney argued that the weapon has a removable pistol grip and is designed and intended to be used with a shoulder stock, making it a shotgun.
Is this even remotely legitimate? Since we’re not talking about a .410 which is the only shotgun bore under 0.50″ therefore allowing it to not be an NFA item if sold as a handgun (given that the bore of said gun is rifled), then this shotgun must by law be a long-gun. Federal minimum age for long guns is 18. If this isn’t a long-gun, and pistol-grip shotguns are NOT NFA items, what are they?
This convoluted bullshit is what the antis call “Common Sense”.
There is not a chance in hell of me firing any of my 12 gauge shots guns with pistol grips without a shoulder stock. Frankly I like my wrists way too much.
As I often say, “Yeah, but we live in a world of Physics, Friction, and Taxes so that’s impossible.”
That’s not to say pure pistol type shotguns do not exist, but the odds of me hitting the broad side of a barn and having a functional limb after word is decreased to say the least. If you actually look at them you’ll notice they have a sling swivel stud so you can be pushing forward with a large amount of pressure prior to the recoil.
Now my M4 with the shoulder stock at pistol grip is a dream to shoot. Comfortable and easy, also a long gun by any description of the word. A picture of the shotgun would work wonders here. If there’s a shoulder stock, it’s a freaking long gun.
Hey, I’ve hit skeet with a pistol-gripped shotgun. Took a lot of birds breaking on the ground, but I hit a few. It can be done!
And I’ve fired a 14″ barrel Mossberg 590 with just a pistol grip with one hand – it can also be done…
There is a lot of legalistic mumbo-jumbo floating around such that:
A “Shotgun” is made or remade, designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.
A pistol grip only firearm is not a shotgun, due to the fact that it came from the factory unable to be fired from the shoulder.
Therefore, PGO “shotguns” (provided they were manufactured that way) are not shotguns as defined by the NFA; and thus cannot become a SBS even with a barrel under 18″. This also leads to them being a generic title 1 firearm, like a stripped receiver, and require the purchaser to be 21 or over to buy.
As to how they are not classified as a destructive device? Not sure.
Ask Wally about it in chat, he should have lots of info on it.
I’m going to second this one. Because they were not manufactured in such a way that they could be designed to be fired from the shoulder, they are not “shotguns.” They aren’t pistols either, because they aren’t designed to shoot one bullet.
The big question is, are they AOWs or DDs? The answer to that is, “No, because if they were, tens of thousands of fudds who have PG shotguns would have massive colonic spasms and run straight into the arms of the NRA and other “extremist” organizations who have told them for years that the government is out to get their guns.
Mike Vanderboegh occasionally comments on the latest developments in the PGO shotgun world. You can hear him cackling in the background as you read it.
Here’s his latest
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/12/calling-atf-on-insane-rule-manufacturer.html
Yup. Pistol gripped shotguns are all in regulatory limbo right now.
The rule used to be that if it had an 18″ barrel, and a 26″ overall length, it was still a shotgun.
But now the BATFE wants to consider it a pistol, but only if a minors buys it. If you try to shorten the barrel because it is supposedly a “pistol”, however, the BATFE will prosecute you for having an unregistered SBS.
And as for purpose made 12 gauge pistols with rifled barrels, the BATFE got Mossberg to stop making them by threatening to declare them to be DDs under President Bush’s infamous Streetsweeper rule.
Basically, the rules for these are all a contradictory messed, caused by the BATFE wanting to have their cake and eat it too.
The FFL is in the wrong.
If it was built at the factory as a pistol grip only 12ga, it would be considered not a pistol, nor a shotgun, but as an ‘other’.
If the dealer put a stock on it, he would be “manufacturing” a shotgun, requiring an 07FFL (which they dit not likely have) and require an additional 11% excise tax on the price of the firearm.
Interestingly enough, the purchaser could put a shoulder stock onto it and make it permanently into a shotgun, no cost/no tax/no issues.
But federal law doesn’t just specify hand gun or long gun, there is another category, conventiently known as “other”. “other”s are things that are not handguns and are not long guns. Some of this gets dirty in the definitions of things, but in this case, the firearm would be ‘other’, same goes for a stripped receiver, or a semi automatic 1919 (not intended to be fired from the shoulder), or anything NFA.
Federal law sets min age to buy a firearm from a FFL at 21, with the exception being rifles and shotguns can be purchased by someone 18 years of age. What an 18-20 year old cannot purchase *from an FFL* includes pistols, bare receivers, “other” firearms, and anything NFA. Many states do allow all of those transactions between people of age 18, just the feds wont let an FFL do it.
The FFL was in the wrong by the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is complete nonsense as it will allow conversion in some cases, one-way conversion in other cases, but no conversion by the federal licensee, and generally is fraught with inconsnstent logic.
Thanks for all the info, and it just proves how stupid the laws are!
Years ago H&R did make .410 pistols called Handy Guns. They were outlawed back in 68.
Serbu Super Shorty? That’s classed as an AOW as it comes ffrom the manufacturer that way. Form 4 and $5 tax stamp…
Does this mean you could make a .499 shotgun shell and sell revolvers chambered for it?
Yes. Think of the Judge…
And this is also the same reason the 20ga judge never came out, it was classified as a destructive device. Horrible precendent that – a sporting cartrdige is now classified as nonsporting in a certain application.