It’s a common thing when running in libertarian circles to hear about “Malum prohibitum” and “Malum in se” laws. Respectively they speak of laws that go against a behavior because it has been declared “Prohibited” vs. laws that target behavior because it is “evil”.
For example laws against rape and murder are there because murder and rape are horrible evil crimes.
Meanwhile consenting prostitution, recreational drugs, magazines holding more than X bullets and cigarette taxes are laws because society has decided they should be prohibited when really there are no victims in these crimes.
The Daily Show went after Rand Paul for noting this:
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) even blamed cigarette taxes.
“What the fuck are you talking about?” Stewart asked after hearing Paul’s remarks. “Well I guess now we know what it takes for a senator from Kentucky to admit cigarettes can kill.”
I have mixed feelings about Eric Garner’s death. Like all death, be it Mr. Garner, or Trayvon Martin, or Michael Brown, or countless others, it’s sad when something ends in deadly force. My sadness for Brown and Martin only goes so far. They both were violent criminals involved in a criminal culture, and chances are if George Zimmerman, or Officer Wilson hadn’t shot them when they did, they probably would have been shot by somebody else. Eric Garner isn’t too different as he was a frequent scofflaw of the law, and some of those past convictions were violent ones.
I am NOT AN ANARCHIST! We NEED police to enforce our laws. Also we need police to enforce ALL our laws, just and unjust. The solution to unjust laws is to REPEAL them, not fight them on the streets. Eric Garner was committing a crime, and then further he chose to resist arrest when caught.
I don’t know enough, even watching the video of Mr. Garner’s last moments if the force was excessive, or even if the officers caused his death any more than the exertion of fighting with the cops. Mr. Garner was severely overweight and had a heart condition, it isn’t unreasonable to think that if he had started sparing at the local martial arts dojo and his partner took extra care not to hurt him, he might have died there as well.
Resisting arrest is a SERIOUS crime. Police are required to enforce the law, and they can’t just stop doing their job because a suspect acts like a toddler and simply says “No!”. Now if you are detained by police you might help yourself a LOT by keeping your mouth shut. There are certainly cases where people were arrested, jailed, or imprisoned because they told the cops information that was beneficial to their case. Still once the police say “You’re under arrest, put your hands behind your back!” the time to fight any injustice is NOT THERE. Resisting arrest after this point will only make things worse for you.
Still the bottom line is ALL LAWS ARE POTENTIALLY DEADLY. You sell black market cigarettes, or speed in your car, or shoplift penny candy from the local drug store, it could lead to your death either by police mistaking your actions for more dangerous ones, or from resisting arrest to the point where the force becomes deadly.
If cigarettes weren’t taxed to such a stupid level in New York Eric Garner might still be dead, but he wouldn’t have been killed for THIS crime.
As a rule, the time to debate the justness of a law is in a courtroom with a lawyer.
Outside of that, you need to do what the officer says- and then afterwards go to the courtroom with a lawyer if needed.
There’s also Stewart engaging in geographic bigotry.
Nevermind that Rand Paul is an MD, specifically an eye surgeon. Nah he’s gotta be some ignorant redneck that don’t know about cigarettes!
It’s like how progressives can say how much more they *care* about the medical plight of poor people as opposed to someone who donates surgical time to personally help the poor see.
That’s the nice thing about being a “Progressive”, you can indeed do JUST THAT. You can declare Rand (and Ron for that matter) completely uneducated rednecks, and certainly ignorant of health and biology issues. Meanwhile you can declare Barack Obama one of the greatest minds of our time. All of this can simply be done with a wave of the hand, no proof needed!
Also Stewart gets a special card to play. He can always say “I’m a Comedian, I’m just foolin’!”, which is also another reason why I hate so many “Intellectual Comedians”. If they were REALLY that smart they probably would have gone into an easier and more lucrative field than spending years doing open mics in dive bars getting paid nothing or next-to-nothing. Now people like Jon Stewart and Lewis Black, have made more money than I’ll ever see…but of all the people they were doing open mic nights at Ha Ha’s Laugh Bar with maybe 2-3 of them are making an honest living telling jokes.
They’re only “Intellectual” as far as they THINK they’re really smart. Except I’m not really smart and the fabric they weave their jokes from is paper thin even to me.
Now on the other hand, I LOVE it when a professor gives a lecture with some really well crafted jokes and punchlines thrown in, because they KNOW what they’re talking about, and they think their jobs are fun enough to crack wise!
One problem with the Garner killing, he wasn’t committing any illegal act when he was confronted by the cops (whatever his history). Reportedly, the cops were responding to a fight. As it turns out, Garner had already helped to break it up before they got there. When the cops challenged him about his presence (on a public street), words were exchanged and he began to walk away. The result of that we have all seen.
A Grand Jury has determined there was no criminality in the police behavior, so apparently insufficient servility is a summary death penalty act these days in NYC.
As a rule, the time to debate the justness of a law is in a courtroom with a lawyer.
Nay, the time to debate the justness of a law is in the Legislature and in the Executive chamber before it is signed, recognize that eventually and ultimately lethal force will be used to enforce any law, and, is it just to enforce this law that way?
It is inherent in all laws to escalate the penalty to lethal force.
This Garner situation isn’t any different than the more common tasering for these situations. The officer used it for submission (or torture) without the intent to kill. There have been hundreds of deaths from tasers, which I would guess is order of magnitudes more than choke hold deaths, yet they haven’t elicited protests and riots and calls of “racism”.
I came across an interesting article regarding the Garner murder. I’m not saying that I agree or disagree, only that it brings up some interesting points.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2014/12/have-we-reached-peak-jackboot.html
I would like to point out that crimes for illicit drugs are NOT victimless crimes.
A lot of people died providing you with your cocaine, heroin, PCP, methamphetamine or even marijuana. The whole supply chain is dripping with the blood of the dealers who kill each other, or that of innocent citizens in our country caught in the cross fire, or those people that live in failed countries like Mexico where the illicit drug trade has corrupted their legal, law enforcement, and military.
I’m tired of the lie that what we choose to ingest, snort, smoke, or inject here in America has no moral consequences. At a minimum, the use of these drugs leads to all sorts of societal and personal damage. Criminal behavior from theft to buy drugs to violence to protect the product abounds.
Those that call for reducing these laws while simultaneously using these drugs are the worst of hypocrites. If you are an abuser, please spare me the stupidity of defending your actions. Be an adult and admit that you don’t give a damn about anything else but your high.
You have 100% valid points on that. First up ADDICTION is not a victimless crime. From relatives and friends I’ve had who’ve had drinking and drug problems, to family members who’ve died of lung cancer or had their health compromised by cigarette smoking, yes choosing to use a substance to the detrimental end hurts lots of people, not just the user.
And yes, Mexico is a HORRIBLE failed state right now. Outside of a few enclaves owned by outside interests (ie the resorts in Cancun and tourist traps in Tijuana etc) Mexico is almost as dangerous to civilian travel as Iraq is right now, and that is 100% because of illegal drugs.
But these two factors are not ubiquitous, nor are they in a vacuum. First up cigarettes and booze, as well as to the lesser extent prescription medication are legal, and can be abused to great detriment of those around the abuser. Still the solution to these problems are vastly different, and trivial in comparison to dead bodies being hung from overpasses, and full-on military shootouts being done in Mexico, or if we want to look in our own history speakeasies being bombed, and scores of people found dead from ingesting poisonous bathtub gin.
I absolutely agree with your sentiments that legalizing recreational drugs will cause scores of problems in this country. Still A) I don’t think any of these problems will be NEW ones that we haven’t previously been dealing with, further while it would be foolish to think that there might not be an increase of addiction of the legal barriers were removed, I personally don’t imagine these increases would be that severe. It’s all speculative, but there are lots of crack and heroine addicts out there, and we throw the book at users of these drugs, yet the shipments keep getting smuggled in, and new Junkies keep showing up. And then B) I don’t see the issues being caused by legalization as something WORSE than the problems created by the prohibition. Cartels, terrorists, and street gangs ALL exist because drugs are a highly profitable trade, and the only reason why they are profitable is because they are illegal. Legalize it, you not only collapse the market, but you also move the smaller amount of money from growing legal coca and poppies, and refining them to drugs from the unsavory hands into the hands of entrepreneurs who now will operate in the open rather than the shadows.
Further you get rid of the DEA, and all the vicious search and seizure laws that have been created by the “War on Drugs”.
We can argue which “Evil” is better, but my mind is made up, and has been for years.