Why Should Cows Be Sacred?

Tam has a post up on Kimber Suck and Fail, and the 1911 as it exists today, Caleb also has a good follow-up post.
We should all know I LOVES me some 1911s, I’m carrying one now, and I own two, and I’m sure I’ll get more one day.

Most 1911s made these days are hobby guns. They have ejectors that aren’t pinned, MIM plunger tubes that won’t take a stake, limp noodle cast or MIM extractors that aren’t properly tensioned from the factory, and other failings. These are caused by the fact that the design of the pistol is not friendly to modern manufacturing methods, and so shortcuts get made to keep the guns cost-competitive.

-Tam

But now here comes the heresy part – because aside from nostalgia, there is no reason to buy a 1911 for serious social work any more. With the obvious exception of certain competition divisions such as Single Stack where the 1911 is all that’s allowed.

Again I repeat myself – for a serious fighting or competition pistol, there is absolutely no need to buy a 1911. A good, functioning 1911 that will be reliable is going to cost about $1,000. That’s the price of entry. If you’re in love with the .45 ACP cartridge, for $1,000 you could get TWO M&P45 pistols and a couple of spare mags, or you could get 2 used Glock 19s, a holster, some mag carriers, and a pile of spare mags and even have money left over to take an entry level pistol class.

-Caleb

What they speak is truth. The 1911 is an OLD design and was invented before many modern materials and cost-saving production techniques were invented. Its the way of the world, the classic Luger P08 got replaced by the Walther P38 by the German military simply because it was cheaper and faster to crank out the Walthers than the Lugers, and both guns essentially functioned identically.

Go peek in Officer Friendly’s duty holster, you’ll likely see a polymer framed, double-stack pistol. Why? Its a good design and doesn’t cost a ton to make them and you get a gun comparable, if not better than a modern forged-steel pistol.

My cousin just graduated from College and was looking at pistols for home defense and carry. He sounded a bit reluctant to tell me he was a bit sticker-shy when seeing the price of .45 Ammo (he knows like like the big heavy bullets). I didn’t hesitate, I told him to buy a S&W M&P9c. If he asked me the same question, but said he had a fat signing bonus and money wasn’t an option, I’d have said the same thing.

I must say most people buy 1911s because they LIKE 1911s. I would argue that my S&W1911Sc carry gun. The gun I carry damn near every day, and trust my life, and the lives of my loved ones with, is functionally INFERIOR to say a Kahr TP45 which is approximately the same demotions, weight, caliber, capacity as my lightweight commander, but this gun costs less NEW than I paid for my gun in a well-used state. I’d say “Inferior” also because one of the reasons the Kahr is so much cheaper is its vastly less mechanically complicated. Less parts, less parts to break or fail.

Of course no gun is an island. When I bought my S&W1911Sc I had my pick of holsters, because a 100 year old design means everybody makes a holster for it. I bought some after-market grips, and a new guide rod assembly, and there are a bunch of other things I could easily change on this gun for short money. I can have my pick of magazines (this is a double-edged sword, as I’ve bought lemon magazines for my guns, as well as quality ones, all from “After Market” sources, because I have to, as S&W does not make 1911 magazines, dispute making a ton of 1911s, they simply don’t have to!). Also any gunsmith can do just about any job on a 1911, I wonder how many smiths have spent any serious time in the guts of a Kahr?

Of course there’s the more silly reasons. I own and carry 1911s because that was the first gun I “fell in love with”, shooting was a neat new experience for young anti-gun me, but until I shot my first 1911, it wasn’t something I wanted to do on my own. Because I like 1911s I just so happened to have shot a LOT of them, and done so to high round count (I don’t keep shooting logs, but my stainless 1911 has probably close to 20,000 rounds through it, the Sc considerably less, but probably over 5,000, and that’s just with me, both guns were bought from the used racks), I trust my shooting ability with them more than other guns. Does this mean I couldn’t do the same thing with a Glock? Of course not, but I haven’t.

I’m rambling on. I’ll just say, if you want a 1911, go buy one, and hopefully it’ll treat you well. If you come to me and ask “What gun should I buy. Of course the real answer is “Go shoot a bunch and see what you think!” this isn’t a one-size-fits all world…hell there are some 1911s I don’t like, let alone guns of various shapes and sizes. But my most favorite gun to shoot, own, and carry won’t be on the top of the list if you asked me to give you a short-list.

Caleb and Tam are right, NIB a quality 1911 is gonna run around $1000. If you’re a new shooter, you’d be better off buying a gun for half that price and dumping the rest in mags, ammo, holsters, and training. Then once you’ve become a competent shooter with your new-fangled plastic pistol, you still want an old-timey 1911, go get one and shoot the crap out of it!

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0 Responses to Why Should Cows Be Sacred?

  1. ZK says:

    I disagree as to competition, at least. Single and double stack 1911 pattern guns are still at the top of the pack. You can’t get a polymer gun that’s 42oz with a 2# short trigger. “Practical” competition which outlaw all the crazy-ass things you can do to these guns might be the exception.

    For carry, I’m considering jumping ship. I carry a full-up custom 3.5″ 1911, and I’m considering replacing it with an M&Pc. I just have to work too hard to keep up with double-stacks in 9mm, and I’m not sure I think there’s that much difference in terminal performance.

    • ZK says:

      Obviously, though, a tuned STI in 9mm Major is probably not a great choice for a new shooter, though, which I guess is the point.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      For those serious competition guys, their criteria is vastly different than somebody looking to get a first gun, or get a gun for X day-to-day use. If you’re running serious competition guns, you don’t need my advice.

  2. An analog comparison to cars is very easy. One car you might find to be a comfortable ride if you test drive it. But deciding what a practical cargo and people-mover to buy can be completely different.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      And again, no one-size-fits all. I have a friend who drives a unibody SUV and loves it, I wouldn’t be caught dead in one. My Father and I both drive Ford Rangers, but Dad’s is the standard cab 2X4 with the smallest engine they make for most fuel economy, while I have a super-cab 4×4 with the biggest motor they make. And we’re all happy with our rides, and none of us would prefer the other’s. Funny how that works!

  3. mike w. says:

    I’m just amused that both of these posts pop up right as I’m about to buy my 1st 1911.

  4. bluesun says:

    NancyR gave me some advice when I was shopping for my first pistol, which I believe she got from Ambulance Driver– “Buy what makes you happy in your pants.”

    If the 1911 is the one you connect with, why is there a problem? You’ll overlook and overcome all the faults, and you’ll be fine. If you want a plastic gun (I wound up with a XD9 subcompact), it will probably be because of entirely different reasons, it will probably come with it’s own set of problems and tradeoffs, and if it is what you are happy with, again, you’ll be fine.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      That’s also a good point that I missed. I’ve run 20,000 rounds through my stainless 1911 for no other reason than I love shooting and I love shooting that gun most of all.

      When I bought my AK, I never thought it was a bad gun, but I just didn’t enjoy it, so I didn’t shoot more than 100 rounds through in 6 months, so I sold it. Haven’t been shooting much recently (need to change that!) But I’m over that count with the FAL already, dispite the greater expense of ammo, just because I like it more.

      You won’t shoot a gun you don’t like much.

  5. “…both guns essentially functioned identically.”
    Not to be too fussy, as yes, they both administer a 9mm bang. BUT, the P08 was a single action gun, while the P38 was the first double/single action pistol on the scene.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      Yep, I didn’t want to get to geeky. They’re both single-stack duty-sized Kraut 9. We could babble about the merits of the toggle action vs. The locking block, or the addition of a modern-day pistol slide, or DA vs. SA. (I’ll note the Kahr is a striker fired DAO, while the 1911 is a SAO,) but when it comes to running the gun for range fun and self defense, the difference really becomes accademic. With military pistols, those things were only used in desperation anyway ….

  6. Blackhawk101 says:

    Becuase of your blog I bought my first 1911 a few months ago- that 1911 made in 1912.

    I became so enamored of it that I started looking for another 1911 series to carry when I want something a bit less bulky. About a week ago I ended up purchasing a Lightweight Commander sporting a Kart national match barrel, a trigger job, aggressive aftermarket grips, a dark green ceracoated frame with a blued slide, Heinie combat tritium sights, additional high end aftermarket parts and everything has been rounded/dehorned/stoned. It was formerly owned by a NASDAQ vice-pres. Used it cost me $1600.

    I took it out shooting this weekend and at 18 yards I was about 2 inches low and 3 inches left with a grouping of about 3″ using American Eagle 230gr ball. The one thing I found out I HATED was the standard colt mags- I had a rough time seating them during my combat reload practices. So I did some research and just ordered 3 Wilson Combat 47Ds along with their 230gr+P defensive loads. As for how to carry it I figured I’d give Dragon a whirl and will be ordering a Talon holster from him.

    I see you use Wilson mags- how do you like them? And should I send you a pic of the piece?

    • Weerd Beard says:

      I was going to demand a picture! Sounds like an awesome custom gun. What make are the frame and slide?

      The Wilson 47D are the only magazines I use, work or play. They work, so I use them. Just remember to keep track of your mags, as magazines are consumable products. What+ P ammo did you get, and have you function checked it yet?

      • Blackhawk101 says:

        Colt frame and slide.

        I got the WIlson Combat 230gr+P tipped with Hornady XTP.

        I’ll send a pic later when I get home

  7. Wally says:

    1911s are fine and fun, but I agree I wouldnt choose one as a first gun, or a duty gun for that matter. In full disclosure, a 1911 was my first handgun and I spent many years laboring under the malformed impression that it was simply the best evah with no need to question.

    I love watching 1911s choke and die at my local IDPA matches. Part of me thinks it is due to the ton of aftermarket parts and little skill required to screw up a gun. Compare that with a polymer/striker fired gun that has less than half of the component count, with all components working off the shelf- no “fitting” is reuired by design.

    • ZK says:

      I’m sure this happens frequently, but I see far more Glocks than 1911s choke in my local IDPA match. Losing a magazine with the G34 mag release is a pretty common failure mode. This is mostly because there are far more Glocks than 1911s, but also because most of the people running 1911s are doing so from a fully informed position.

      I’m actually really impressed with the M&P. They seem to not shoot quite as nice as the G34, but I’ve never seen one choke. I have seen them lose sights, so I guess everything breaks.

  8. ZK says:

    Assuming you don’t reload, 25,000 rounds of cheap .45ACP is probably between $5000 and $10,000 dollars worth of ammunition. To keep gun prices in perspective.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      90-95% has all been reloads using scrounged brass from the club buckets.

      Tho I did start out feeding my gun Wolf steel-case. Dirty, and not as accurate, but inexpensive. Still my handloads are a hair cheaper.

      • ZK says:

        Big thumbs up on having the discipline to keep on handloading. If I had the motivation to run my press with any regularity, I might still shoot .45 in IDPA. On the low motivation track, it’s just too costly to go through that much of god’s own caliber.

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  10. Paul Kanesky says:

    I guess I am old fashioned. I started shooting a 1911 in 1961 and still carry a 1911 today. The only change is going from a 5 inch to a commander to a 3″ defender. I have friends, and my son-in-law who is a cop, that carry Glocks, Kahrs, etc. From my observations at the range these guns are very reliable and just as accurate (almost) as my 1911 but I see no reason to change from a gun I have shot and carried for 50 years. I am comfortable with its accuracy, reliability, and feel in my hand.
    That said, The newer models from several manufacturers are probably better guns for carry and defense but the old saying, “If it ain’t broke, dont fix it” fits me so I will continue to carry the 1911.
    Paul in Texas

    • Weerd Beard says:

      Yep that’s my thoughts. Yes I could replace my 1911 with a simpler more modern design…but why bother, it WORKS, and its been proven for 100 years to work. You can mumble about parts counts, and necessity, but you, I and a several million other people know, when one is made right, it runs like top. Why get academic?

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  12. Gunnutmegger says:

    Well, it’s nice to see there are others who feel like I do.

    http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/2010/12/20/the-1911-sucks/

    • Weerd Beard says:

      Nope. Carrying a 1911 right now, love them to death, and they are my most favorite gun to own and shoot, and trust my life with. Just it is not a sacred cow to me, but one-of-many great guns one can choose from.

      BTW, you should be ashamed of you post since Elmer “Robert Farago” Fudd decided to pick it up.

      • mike w. says:

        I swear to god, “Gun X sucks” posts have got to be the most inane in the gunnie world. The only time they’re OK is if you truly do have a POS Lorcin, Raven etc. To say that an entire gun design (that’s been around 100 years) sucks is just…….sigh.

        • Weerd Beard says:

          Well at least Lorcins and Ravens are small, inexpensive, and easily concealable. But yeah they do suck. Also guns like my CZ-52 totally sucks (neat piece of history, but BOY it is a lousy implantation of a gun design), and guess what? Nobody makes them anymore. Meanwhile its replacement was the CZ-82, which is a really nice gun…guess what, you can buy the civilain model the CZ-83 right now brand-new.
          http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-83/

          If people are still making Gun X, people MUST be buying them for whatever reason, and it must not be because its 100% suck and fail.

  13. deadcenter says:

    what’s in officer friendly’s holster depends on locale, the city cops and county sheriffs’ deputies in my neck of the woods carry single stack 1911s, almost exclusively Kimber. after the performance of one senior deputy at our club match with his new outta the box kimber, that may change as before that match i’d never seen a bolt-action 1911.

  14. Chris in Texas says:

    As my boss was telling me as he was showing me how to replace the extractor on my SA 1911-A1 GI, the 1911 was designed when labor was cheap and precision machining was expensive. It was cheaper to hand-fit parts than it was to manufacture them to the tight tolerances needed for proper function. Today, precision manufacturing is cheap(er), and skilled labor is expensive, and the polymer guns are more popular.

    I love my 1911, and I carry it whenever I can. That said, if the gun fairy came to my house tonight and replaced it with a Glock or an FN or a CZ, I wouldn’t feel undergunned. I’d be wondering what the hell I was gonna do with all those 1911 mags I have, but the fact is there are so many reliable guns out there that it really comes down to personal preference.

    • Weerd Beard says:

      Yep, I like 1911s mostly because the 1911s are the guns I like. Pretty much everything outside the “Bargain gun” category out there are rock-solid, reliable guns. The question is what size/weight/caliber, and interface do you prefer? As well as price-point.

      Very neat about the labor vs. Machining issue. I hadn’t thought about that, but yeah back in 1911 automation was in its infancy, fast forward to WWII when the majority of the A1s were cranked out, we were just climbing out of the Great Depression and people were looking for ANYTHING for work at ANY price.

      Today we have CNC and robotic milling machines, and god knows what other things that replace hand tools and brawn. Not to mention new-fangled shit like investment casting, MIM, and molded polymer etc etc.

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