Just been hearing a lot about AR-15s chambered in various 0.308″ cartridges.
been hearing a lot about .300 AAC Blackout, also when Remington got into the AR-15 platform they also started producing the .30 Remington AR cartridge Also JP told me about the 7.62×40 WT cartridge from Wilson combat on the latest Empty Mags podcast.
From a guy who’s turned off by the power and bullet weight of the ubiquitous 5.56x45mm, its nice to see people beefing up the diet of the AR-15. Certainly looking at the numbers available the 7.62×40 certainly has the most versatile and powerful loadings, tho the .300 AAC Blackout does hold the distinction of being designed to run subsonic for suppressed fire.
Of course they’re all super rare cartridges that essentially marry you to handloading until several major ammo makers start picking up the cartridge, and single-sourcing for rifles until the same thing happens.
Meanwhile we have this odd cartridge. readily available, many different platforms as well as different manufactures.
What’s my point? Well not a lot really. If you HAVE an AR and want to build it up to a .30 but don’t feel like buying a whole new gun, I guess this will work.
Still as cool as all these cartridges are (and they are cool) I think I’d rather have an FAL or an AR-10 in .308 than bother with these.
I’m really thinking about the 7.62×35 and 7.62×40. They could be fun, are easily enough handloaded, play to the ubiquitous AR-15 platform, and at least Rem is making 300Blk ammo, and Hornady is producing 300Whisper.
They are probably a lot more appealing if you already have an AR-15 and a pile of mags, so the cost of a changeover is that of just a barrel – but more likely, a whole upper receiver.
Options. We like having options. Who cares if you use them, they are good to have regardless!
I hadn’t thought about the magazines. Yeah won’t all of these fit in a standard STANAG mag with either no modifications or just a new follower?
Correct.
So a 300 whisper, 300blackout, or 7.62x40WT all have a shit ton of preban mags available for them 🙂
So do FALs and G3s, I’m just sayin’ 😉
Well, the 300 Blackout, Whisper, .30 Remington AR, and 7.62×40 all fit in AR15 magwells, while the .308 requires an AR10 magwell, and thus an AR10.
If you want to stay with the smaller AR15, then .308 doesn’t work.
If you want .308 ballistics in the AR15 platform, you need to consider the 6.5 Grendel.
“If you want .308 ballistics in the AR15 platform, you need to consider the 6.5 Grendel.”
Really, Alexander Arms makes a 150 and 180 grain load? 😉
I’m curious what your definition of “.308 Ballistics” is.
But yeah you need an AR-10, or some other .308 Platform to get REAL .308 Performance.
Comparable is just that. Since 1000 foot pounds on target seems to be the threshold, the Grendel and the 175 SMK loading for the military have been extensively compared. The .308 starts out with a lot more energy, but by the time the Grendel crosses that 1000 foot pound line, they are only about 150 foot pounds apart, and the Grendel continues closing that gap all the way past 1000 yards. In fact, loaded with comparable SMK bullets and factory loads, the Grendels exterior ballistics are superior when it comes to drop and drift past about 5-600 yards, which is where those factors really come into play.
So the .308 carries a little more energy, the Grendel has better external ballistics, making it easier to put on target. Thus…comparable.
The FAL and G3 have lousy reputations for accuracy, BTW :). LOL
Dunno about G3s, I’m not a fan of that design, nor H und K, but I have heard just the opposite for FALs when it comes to accuracy.
I have heard that some of the cheap century FALs were not well made (mine so far seems to be holding up well). But again I’m not doing long-range sniping with mine, its a 200 yards and in SHTF rifle with only iron sights.
Don’t see anyone going out and buying FAL’s to shoot in tactical type accuracy or sniper matches, which are dominated by AR style rifles.
SHTF, yep, you are GTG. I think they are the choice of Rawlins and his survival crew, too.
SHTF guns SHOULD be 5.56, 7,62×39, .308! Most everything else is too hard to find, witness 2008-early 2010!
There are numerous not .223 Rem chamberings for the AR.
Nearly all of them put more thump down range.
Many send the thump farther down-range.
Quite a few require special magazines, but not a special mag-well.
It comes down to need. What do you need the rifle to do. What’s it got to knock over and how far away.
You’ll also have to be brutally honest with yourself. For example; 6.5 Grendel has more reach than 6.8 SPC with a lot of (perhaps most) loadings. That capability is wasted if you can’t see or hit what you want to knock over out there. The ranges where I can actually see what I am shooting at and where I can actually get range time there’s not enough difference between them to matter, so I went with more available 6.8.
Availability can change at a moment’s notice too! Today’s hot alternate round could be tomorrow’s obscure wild-cat.
If you find that only .308 Win suits your needs, an AR-15 just is not going to cut it. You’re going to want the AR-10 sized version. I got an FAL for this niche; just for variety’s sake.
That is a great point. All my business rifles have just plain irons on them. I just see them as having less failure points, also I don’t see the need of making an extremely long shot in a SHTF scenario.
I understand the long-range ballistics of .308, but frankly I just want muzzle energy!
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
No magazines to worry about, rifles don’t look evil . . .
LOL, Lever guns are a horse of a different color!
I’ll argue terminal ballistics matter more than the launch system…and given the extremely low probability of a long-range, high-shot-volume SHTF scenario around here, and my love for deer…
Well, I know which is more likely to end up in MY safe. 🙂
That’s the big thing. Zercool and I were looking at the new Ruger Scout at the NRA Con, and I mentioned that an FAL costs about the same, only weighs a pound or two more, has cheaper magazines and an option to go up to 20 Or even 30 rounds. And you get a gas operated semi-auto for about the same price.
His answer: “But I really like Bolt Guns!” How does one argue with that?
I never really got bit by the lever bug. I fully understand them, and my wife LOVES the damn things. I just never much cared for them.
I’m not a fan of semi-autos centerfire rifles.
Now a Browning BLR, stainless/takedown model with straight grip in 7mm-08 or 308…ah…. And the odds of having a failure-to-feed|eject given the action is very low…
Or a Marlin SS lever gun in .357 or .44, that would work well here in NE.
All you youngsters out there whining about the 5.56 vs 7.62 Nato! Why, Back in MY Day, we had a REAL Man’s Cartridge, the 30-06! Went toe-to-toe with those Krauts TWICE, took out Japs like they were made out of Straw, and could put meat on the Table from Moose on down! And All the MEN who shot were averaging 5’6″ and weighed 150 lbs! You whiny, Facetubeing, Tofu eating, Mall Ninjas wouldn’t know what Recoil was if it came up and bit you in the Backside!
Or so the old WW2 vets keep telling me. ; )
Unless you shoot real-man powerful .30-06 in a Garand, and you bend the op rod.
Military .30-06 is essentially 7.62x51mm Nato. I’m just sayin.
http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/blog/item/the-garand–almost-as-good-as-a-real-rifle
I believe that I read somewhere about someone making an upper that’ll use standard AR mags and utilize the 7.62×39 ammo…. that would be the way that I would go honestly, ammo availability for the mo-fuggin WIN.
http://jtdistributing.net/store/page171.html
I would worry about reliability simply because of the dramatic taper on the 7.62×39. I see that round as fun for the range, and better than 5.56x45mm, but frankly still underpowered.
Still I wouldn’t hesitate to harvest a white-tail with one.
Getting reliable mags for 7.62×39 has been its bugbear in the AR from the beginning.
That change from curved to straight for the magwell is just too much for it.
This is why there’s so many entirely new rounds designed just for the AR out there. They worked with the mag-well as a given and took it from there instead of hoping they’d find a solution with both the cartridge and well as givens.
I’ve always thought the relative strengths and weaknesses of the .308 and 5.56 are enough to cancel each other out. I think it’s kinda like the Ford / Chevy / Dodge debates. They’re all basically the same vehicle, but we all have our preferences and it’s fun to argue or debate or show some amped up bravado.
That being said, my MBR is a 5.56 AR-15, so I will just say that you wouldn’t need the “knockdown” power of a .308 to compensate for your lousy bullet placement if ya learned to shoot straight! Masshole punk!
:o)
Not to mention that we civilians are not restricted to ball ammo either.
Some of the difficulties with stopping and the 5.56 come from the fragmentation happening behind (and outside) of the rail thin starved bad-guy. Since I don’t have to abide by the Hague Convention, I can use hollowpoints that expand right away.
LOL! Great analogy, and i’ll add that Chevy was bought out by the .gov so it wouldn’t fail.
So much for you bowtie-lovers saying my ford sucks! I win! 😉
BTW I’m not so sure that a lousy placement of .308 will ever beat a well placed 5.56.
Just the same with the whole 9mm vs. .45 vs. .454 Casull.
Shot placement is king. That being said I think heavier bullets tend to behave less erratically terminally than lighter bullets, and faster bullets bring more energy to the game.
.308 just seems to be the fastest and heaviest that a common battle rifle has been made for, So I like it best.
Isn’t 7.62x54R ~147gr just a touch faster ?
It is, but its also not really a semi-auto cartridge, and the fact that its a rimmed cartridge further complicates things.
Also really the only battle rifle for it (outside of your Frankenstein lab) is the SVT-40 and those are both expensive, getting rare, and while they have detachable magazines, they’re more akin to the SMLE’s than the FAL’s
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