From Caleb who has forgotten more about practical shooting than I’ll never know.
So let me see if I have this straight. In a situation where there is no backup and no one is coming to help me, I should waste bullets on the hope that me firing into the ground will startle my attacker so much that it’ll interrupt his OODA loop and allow me to gain the advantage? I’m sorry, but that is close to the silliest thing I’ve ever read on the internet. You know what else would interrupt a mugger’s OODA loop? A 230 grain JHP in the chest. In fact, the situation presented in their example is exactly why we train to have a fast first shot from the holster. The problem ideas like “walking rounds into a target” is we end up creating unlikely scenarios to justify a bad technique like “walking” rounds into a target. Instead of worrying about walking rounds into a target to “scare” him, worry about improving your draw speed so that you can draw and get an A-zone hit at 7 yards in less than 1.5 seconds. Like I said, the best way to interrupt an attacker’s OODA loop is to shoot the guy.
Yep. You’re responsible for all rounds that you fire. Rather than “Walking Rounds” which are essentially intentional misses, do your best to put rounds on target or simply don’t shoot at all.
If your “Walked” round skips off a rock or pavement and kills somebody NOT posing a threat to you, you’re responsible for that death, no matter WHAT other threats you’re encountering. Same goes to Mr. Badguy retreating into the house. No matter what he did to you, or his plans to do to you later or from the cover of the house, if you shoot through the walls and kill his wife and kids, you’re responsible for those deaths.
Caleb also talks about “Getting off the X”, ie moving to make yourself a harder target. I could say the same things about the long range shots in the video. Lynn is an accomplished hunter, so being able to brain a game animal at 150 yards with a Glock 20 makes for good sport, but if you’re taking fire from that range wouldn’t seeking cover be a wiser move than tossing lead across creation?
All-in-all we’re starting to talk about a lot of speculation, and ever narrower situations of defense. Is this a valid skill, or just a story cooked up to justify the behavior.
Be safe out there, and be careful how you train!
Hmm, Allow me to rephrase Caleb’s statement
In a situation where there is no backup and no one is coming to help me, I should waste Coffee on the hope that me <flinging coffee into his face will startle my attacker so much that it’ll interrupt his OODA loop and allow me to gain the advantage?
Isn’t that exactly what Caleb did a while back?
I don’t agree with all of the things shown in the video but time and time again I’m seeing things taken out of context. Caleb comes closest to getting it but still misses a key point.
The video and later responses make it clear that a.) it is a free for all combat situation and b.) that the assailant already has the defender in his sites.
Under those conditions just about any technique is going to be better than doing nothing.
Weerd you seem to be intentionally ignoring the stated conditions in the training video. Disagree with them fine — but disagree based on the stated scenario.
When it is a last ditch effort not to get shot in the midst of full combat, how irresponsible it is really?
In other situations, I would absolutely agree with you. But evaluate it under the conditions stated and you’ll see there is some sense to it.
Maybe Caleb will speak for himself, as I don’t know the exact specifics of his defensive situation (like what hand his Coffee was in) but I could point out that I often remark that my house alarm isn’t there to protect me, its to protect anybody stupid enough to break into my house. If the serine and the threat of police soon-to-come doesn’t scare them away then It probably won’t take anything less than full-on-deadly force to get them to stop what they are doing. The Coffee throw was the start of the defensive action, but unlike bouncing rounds into the dirt a stray splash of coffee isn’t going to seriously hurt a bystander…a stray round WILL.
No matter HOW dire the situation, the rules are the same, and if things are so hairy you don’t have time to make a sight picture….then you’re probably making muzzle contact, or he’s shooting at you…in which case his ears might be so muted from the noise, and his vision so tunneled from adrenaline, he won’t notice you’re little “Walk”.
The cup of coffee was in my weak (left) hand. And look, I’ll be the first person to admit that I got lucky – if getting hit with coffee hadn’t deterred my attacker, I would have shot him.
The point that I’m trying to make is that whipping your gun out and shooting it into the dirt is a bad technique for a multitude of reasons, but the biggest is that it’s a poor substitute for good practice and training. Training to successfully be able to draw under 1.5 seconds and get good hits is going to be a far more useful skill, even in the situation described. Besides, when you have to create outlandish hypothetical situations of “free-for-all civilian combat zones” to justify a shitty technique, that should be a HUGE red flag.
Plus I’m sure he reacted to the coffee, as most people will (I’ve heard people talk about carrying their keys, or a coffee cup, or a small package in their off hand, and practicing throwing that item towards a threat in part of their draw stroke. This bought you time and did disrupt his plan.
Still you had a .25 on him in case he decided to continue the attack. Really your worst tactical move was to be packing a .25. I’m glad you’re carrying a more substantial gun these days!
Honestly, I also DO carry a 25 on rare occasions, like when I’m going to a more ‘civilized’ setting and definitely don’t want any chance of anyone noticing I’m armed. Usually I carry a 45 but there are times a small pocket gun is needed. and ANY gun beats no gun in my book.
It does, but if my fall-back gun was a .25 or a .22, or even a .32, I’d look into upgrading to a .380, or some of the new pocket 9s.
Most certainly a sub-caliber micro-gun is better than nothing, and likely better than a knife or impact weapon.
Still there are lots of options out there that will do a lot better out the muzzle for surprisingly little added size and weight.
Just some friendly advice.
Caleb,
My point is you do what you have to do when the situation is desperate.
I keep seeing comments like this:
Training to successfully be able to draw under 1.5 seconds and get good hits is going to be a far more useful skill, even in the situation described.
And wish I had the time and money to train to a skill level that you find acceptable or a fitness level Weerd would find acceptable but some people just don’t have that luxury.
And yes, it is a luxury in order to train to the level you describe. It is also impractical or impossible in some cases to train to that level — age, physical infirmities, etc.
Why didn’t you train to the level of being able to draw your weapon in that time frame? Could you do it then, could you do it now?
The scenario set was part of a DVD training program — I’m not sure you are getting that concept. Which is strange from someone so into competitive shooting. Please tell me how often you read of defensive gun uses that look anything like one of the stages you regularly shoot?
Do I think it is a lousy idea? Yep but it is a better idea than being able to travel back in time and work in my fast draw. That is what your suggestion requires.
Lynn posited a situation and showed a method for dealing with it. Instead you want to say that his method is wrong because he should have done This or That years ago.
Weerd talks about people reacting to something thrown at them — all Lynn is doing is taking that to the level of throwing lead.
Bob, but sure you see the difference between thrown coffee, or keys, or a bag, as a distraction, vs. lead, which even as an intentional miss is “Assault with a deadly weapon” in a court of law, and manslaughter or negligent homicide if anybody catches a ricochet.
Weerd,
Yes I do see the difference but you aren’t taking into account where and how the information was presented.
It wasn’t presented as a “there is a mugger on the street” or “burglar in my house” scenario.
Searching fire is a proven combat technique taught by most armies, yes or no?
Applying that to the scenarios — as posited by Lynn — it is a valid technique.
You have a valid point about ammunition conservation — that is a good debate.
The shots fired into the dirt must be evaluated under the conditions set forth training video. Let me remind you that it is one of many training videos.
Your comments still indicate you are trying to evaluate it outside of that scenario.
“Get a shot off fast” to make him miss is an age old concept. Lynn just applied it in the video.
What really gets me is the mentality of “hey you should have trained better”. Good lord folks, dont’ you know I wish I could afford as many training sessions as possible.
But I can’t. So I evaluate what works with the skills, knowledge and ability I HAVE WHEN I NEED IT.
Just like Caleb did. I don’t see posts from Caleb where he’s gone back and gotten a 1.5 second draw from the pocket.
That was the problem I had with your comments on fitness. We have to do the best we can with what we have. Lynn posited a situation — yes a wild never in my lifetime likely scenario — in order to sell videos.
Now evaluate the concept from that perspective — active combat, do or die situation, bad guy has the drop on you — does it make sense to walk your fire into the guy Hoping to make him miss?
You don’t have many other options do you?
Sure, if you have a machine gun with several 100-200 round belts, three other guys to back you up with assault rifles, and the logistical infrastructure in place to get you more ammo when you run out.
I severely doubt that the military teaches searching fire when all you have on you is a sidearm and maybe some spare mags.
Robert,
You should read Weerd’s previous posts on the subject — the ones where he makes fun of Lynn for carrying an inordinate number of 30 round magazines for his Glock.
The point you raise is valid; should one consider the technique is definitely based on availability of ammunition.
1) Most people aren’t willing to carry a bunch of 33 rounders, partly because of the inconvenience and partly because of the difficulty of concealment.
2) You’re still ignoring the legal argument, which is that the rules are vastly different in a military engagement vs. a civilian one.
Trying to walk rounds onto a target in a civilian situation poses a serious safety hazard and is a good way to get an innocent person shot by a stray round, and isn’t at all justifiable, particularly in light of the fact that most defensive situations will take place in situations where walking rounds onto the target isn’t necessary. The military only does it at long ranges or when they are using suppressive fire, and neither is something that is necessary or justifiable at less than 10 yards, which is typical engagement range for civilian self defense.
Also no matter how lawless it is out there, law and order WILL return, and with that return comes the possibility of answering for crimes committed.
If you skipped a round into a bystander, or into somebody’s private property, they may come looking for answers.
If law never returns most of us will be dead no matter what we have or do.
Now you’re missing my point Bob. I was not making fun of Lynn at all for his cashe of G18 mags, I just pointed out that with all the bulk of Glock and mag load-out he’d be logistically better off carrying a carbine.
I don’t carry a handgun because I think its a particularly formidable weapon, as a matter of fact handguns suck. I carry a handgun because its light and handy and leaves me virtually unencumbered to go about my day which I strongly suspect will go off without the need for any sort of violence.
Now a Glock 17 with several G18 magazines, unless he has a rig that is very creative, or not particularly tactical (like carrying the reloads in a backpack or satchel) you won’t be able to conceal them, and it becomes a non-trivial weight.
At that point and M4, M1 Carbine, or even an FAL Paratrooper with several spare mags is not much more weight, but vastly more fire-power if you put the rounds where they count….and even if you skip them in the dust they’re louder and will make bigger dirt-clouds.
If you are justified in using deadly force to protect your life and you’ve decided to pull the trigger why on earth would you then NOT shoot the threat?
And of course from a legal standpoint the fact that you intentionally missed the bad guy is going to look very bad for you. He’s either a lethal threat or he’s not. The argument is going to be “if he was such a lethal threat and you had your gun out, why’d you intentionally try to miss?”
+1 As I always say I am either WALKING AWAY from a threat, or using deadly force. There is no legal middle ground between being authorized to harm somebody, and a provoked assault. My behavior is equally as binary.
Of course just because I’ve deemed somebody a lethal threat doesn’t mean I shoot them, but them getting shot or not is 100% their choice, not mine.
Mike W.,
If you look at the situation presented, I think that walking rounds into the target is a way of shooting him.
The described situation is as contrived as some IDPA/USPPA,IPSC/EIEIO stages that many people say are ‘practical’ training.
The situation isn’t shot into the ground and hope he goes away. It is shot as your gun bears and keep shooting until the target is hit.
Under some situations, that is a valid technique. Would you argue the same thing if the situation was “The thug had my spouse on the ground about to kill him/her…so as I pulled the gun out of the safe I started firing. I fired several shots into the wall as I swung the gun around”?
What is the old phrase about stupid tactics, if it works it isn’t stupid?
I can see applications for walking rounds in. They would be very limited applications granted… but Lynn was making a last ditch, do or die scenario.
What Mike W. said. I’m a noob. I do not have the resources to train as much as I should, much less as much as I’d like. If I point my gun at somebody, much less fire it, you can be bloody well certain I felt like I, or my daughter, was in mortal danger. Eliminating the threat is my priority. I’m not terribly concerned in how that happens.
I have to say that pulling the trigger on your draw is nothing but detrimental. Instead of getting the muzzle on target, you are wasting time firing ineffective rounds. This whole thing is going to take place in 2 – 3 seconds or less. Getting the muzzle on target is paramount and taking the time to pull the trigger instead of focus on effective draw-stroke and getting a round on target should be the primary focus. I’m sorry, I just don’t see that it will do anything but complicate matters.
Depends on distance and training- I can draw straight up from my holster, weapon pressed into my side and can effectively fire and hit a man size target at about 6 feet in the COM area now 100% of the time. When time and distance are short you may not have time to punch the weapon out and use even the top of the slide or thumb as a rough site picture. Note however I am not drawing and walking rounds- I draw up and fire from the position just before I would punch the weapon out from me and go to a 2 handed grip.
Yep, I won’t at all argue with a body-index shot taken at close range as a last resort. That will at least get the rounds in the right area, and at those ranges a person’s body is over a dozen MOA across so the risk of a wild shot exists but is a calculated risk.
In the video Lynn set up a target at about 10 feet and put several rounds into the dust between himself and the target.
He’s responsible for all those rounds, as well as his explanation to why they went in that direction.
Better to make them count with at LEAST a body index shot , but if distance permits a press-out…just like he found time to do with that charging buffalo.
I’ve been trained and practiced body-indexing very close in and it is a very valid technique and one I didn’t think of which would be much preferred to rounds in the dirt. If you’ve practiced your draw properly, you’re already there as soon as you draw and should be rotating very quickly. At that point you can engage on target instead of the dirt, then step back or over and punch out to engage more, if necessary. Thanks for reminding me of that.
The last time I walked rounds into a target I was a machinegunner in the US Army. We are trained to use a belt fed weapon with a 550 rd/minute cyclic rate with its cone of fire to take down the enemy- this includes “walking the rounds in” by observing our impacts and adjusting accordingly. I believe that would be the only time someone could honestly claim that walking rounds is a good idea.
However, In a defensive situation you have to be kidding me- cartridges are life- why in the hell would I dump life into the dirt when I could put it into the perp? And one doesnt know if his dirtbag buddy will try to engage you or if the fight will be drawn out! SO why would I waste rounds trying to disrupt his OODA loop? Again as stated an 230 gr +P round to the chest is a pretty effective disruptive technique- more so if its two of them! Plus you are responsible for every bullet fired and every bullet comes attached with its very own lawyer waiting to sue you on behalf of his client.
Just because someone is an accomplished hunter and makes some of the best damn knives I have ever used does not make him a Tier 1 operator. Leave the defensive gun videos to Magpul, etc.
Even today with my primary carry I have 9 rounds in my 1911, and 16 rounds in the mag carrier. that makes for only 25 rounds. A decent amount but not something where I have ammo to burn…especially in a state of lawlessness where there are VASTLY more than 25 people around who are doing things that warrant getting shot.
In days when I’m unable to carry the shoulder-rig I pocket carry a J-frame with 5 shots in it, and if pockets permit two 6-round speed strips (with a debate if I’d even be able to use the two extra rounds I keep loaded in the strips for the 5-gun) With that load-out I’ll be needing every round I got!
Exactly. When I was walking around DTW with Alan & Breda I had 6 rounds of .32 S&W Long +1 reload on me.
If I’d needed to use it you can be damn sure, given caliber and capacity, that I’m not going to intentionally waste ammo.
Bob is right, there are instances where it might be a valid technique, but NONE of them translate to CCW situations.
You feeding that snub Longs rather than H&R mags?
At the moment I have 0 rounds of H&R mag, so yes.
85 grains of fury from Georgia Arms, traveling at a brisk…… 825 fps.
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