so here Wally and I talk about the “Sheepdog” mentality. First if you don’t know the term have a read here. Read the whole thing, but in a brief nutshell I’d quote this:
“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.”
I’ve never been much of a fan of this analogy. While I do agree the modern man or woman who might identify themselves as “Pacifist” (tho by nature Pacifists are EXTREMELY brave…I would also make the judgment call that they are also stupid. But it takes vastly more bravery and restraint to allow yourself to be beaten and not strike back than it takes to stand your ground and fight) but they’re closer to cowards who hide behind idealism. These are the people in this video who did NOTHING while being threatened with death. They were likely repeating “I can’t believe this is happening to me…” over-and-over in their heads. And they’re right, they go through their entire lives never really thinking about being attacker or having their life on the line. And because we live in a relativity safe society, many never DO get in such a situation.
I can see them as sheep.
The wolves are people like this monster, they do violence and harm by nature, and there is nothing besides death that will stop them from compulsively causing harm and mayhem.
This is much like a Wolf or other predator.
But the Sheep Dog? Sorry, that’s not me. Its not my job to save your ass, and I will agree with Wally on one point, if I ever draw my weapon in defense, it will be for 100% selfish reasons.
But what does that mean? Certainly if I was in a shopping mall and I heard shooting coming from deeper in the Mall and I was armed and near an exit, I’d be getting the hell out of there and calling 911. I don’t know if I’d have run towards the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, and I certainly wouldn’t try to enter the Virginia Tech hall where the shootings happened.
But what if I had a clear shot at an active shooter who hadn’t seen me? Obviously If I was unseen I could sneak away or remain hidden…but while I got to safety others would be killed. Would I be able to live with myself? I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable with that choice. (I will also note that I am Married, but without children…this might be different if I had more dependents), what if there was an active shooter at my office? While I’m friendly with most of the people I work with, I don’t get too friendly just because I HAVE to work with them every day…but I have no personal malice against any of them, and genuinely like most of them, also given that its Massachusetts, and most of my company are Chinese Nationals, I would bet my lunch money that I’m the ONLY armed person in the building. Could I sneak out the back, leaving them alone and unarmed?
I also don’t think I could live with myself if I thought I could stop the attack.
Certainly I’ll draw my gun to defend my life, as well as the lives of my family and friends, but I can’t say I’d never use my gun to defend a perfect stranger.
But I’ll also say I’m NOT a “Sheepdog”, its not my job to protect the flock, and I have no loyalty to them, and I constantly urge people to arm themselves because they are the only protection they can count on.
Be safe people, and carry your gun, because it is a lighter burden than regret! –Breda
Well said. Agree 100%.
If you accept that there are Evil men in the world. Then you must agree that all evil needs to succeed, is for good men to stand by and do nothing. Thus if you encounter a situation in which you could interfere with an evil act, you must act, or accept that you are a coward.
On the other hand if you truly believe that these so-called “Evil men” actually are alike with predators such as wolves, then they cannot be evil. Predators are not evil the merely act according to their nature. Just because their interests lie counter to that of the sheep does not make them evil. any more than the sheepdog’s decision to act on behalf of the sheep is evil to the wolf.
We each act according to their needs, wants and natures. Some will not fight, some will take what they need from those that will not fight for what is theirs, and some cannot help but protect those too stupid or cowardly to protect themselves.
In this at least, we seem to differ, as I like to think I would be willing to take a proactive stance defensively (and if anyone tries to classify that statement as a oxymoron just keep the oxy to your self :)). The choice would substantially by determined by the threat context (am I alone, if in a group how many else are armed, number of attackers, etc), but one thing that influences my thinking is that it is well established that a moving object (read: target) attracts attention far more quickly (and at much greater distance) than does a stationary one. Indeed, the concept of “suppressive fire” was developed precisely because soldiers are required to physically move in combat confrontations. Suppressive fire is not generally an option legally available to citizen CHL holders (stipulating that there are exceptions, how many of us routinely carry sufficient ammo to do so effectively?) so taking and holding a covered position (something with the potential to stop several rounds from fully penetrating, sufficient for you to attempt aimed return fire if necessary) seems generally a better option than adding to the threat’s overall target richness experience.
Unless there is an imediate, direct threat evident (the Virginia Tech shooter is entering the room or aiming at another person in my immediate vicinity for instance), I believe the best option is to secure cover and be prepared to draw my weapon (hand on the gun but not yet drawn from holster) until reinforcements arrive or the threat otherwise ends. If it all goes south, I believe the accumulated experience indicates that a lateral assault toward the attacker’s weapon-hand side is the most likely best ultimate act as a final option.
I carry enough ammo.
Even so, that still leaves the other objection. Losing your 2A rights and likely getting an extensive stay as a guest of the Governor doesn’t fit my definition of a successful defensive shooting.
I was going to post this one too Weerd, but let me just contribute to your thread.
As to when I would clear leather, there is a sliding scale based on a few aspects.
Whom is the threat directed at and how sharp was my situational awareness ? If it is at me, I KNOW the gremlin is unfounded with whatever agressive action they are taking. If it is with someone whom I don’t know very well, I probably don’t know the whole situation and would likely lay back and let things develop (at least until they got very lopsided). If I see two guys fighting with knives at the bus station, there’s no way to assess who needs defending, so I’d lay back.
Where am I ? I do NOT want to draw and be noticed unless it is life and death. If I am somewhere in a rural area, I could draw and not be seen by anyone. That’s okay, I’d hedge a bet in that case. If I was at the mall and something started on the horizon, I may untuck my shirt (if tucked IWB) or reach into my pocket (if pocket carry).
A shooting at the office ? Hell no I’m not going to out myself unless my life is REALLY REALLY in jeopardy.
Sometimes those two criteria mix. If I am at the PO and my pro-gun , MG-owning postmaster is threatened, then I am more likely to respond than the other anti clerk. LIkewise if I am at the bank and it is getting robbed, take the money. If you threaten the one competent teller who always takes care of me, then that elevates my response too.
If I am involved in a self-defense shooting, or an other-defense shooting, it *will* be expensive and result in public exposure. If It is required, by whatever criteria I choose, there is no question that I’ll react suitably.
But would I pay that price to come to the aid of an unknown individual? Not casually – certainly. Anyone can get a gun for home defense, self defense, or for sheepdogging. If you desire that protection, get a sidearm and learn situational awareness. The latter will help more than the former… Anyone can make that decision for themselves. Many people have made that decision as “guns are icky” but it’s not on my agenda to show everyone how guns can be positive.
My job is to get into the world to provide for myself and mine, and get home safe to do it again. That routine can be jeopardized by either a thug or my actions in a defensive shooting. Personal defense is something that we must each undertake to our personal level of comfort. I could draw a parallel to being able to choose your own clothing, or health care coverage. Do you want a high deductable, or cadillac coverage?
and if you do carry, be it either for your personal defense or for sheepdoging, please spend hours running scenarios and determine when you would draw and when you would fire. Think about this logically when you can mull it over. Defining the line in the sand NOW will let you clearly and decisively react if the time comes. There is nothing worse than dawdling and incrementally arguing a point when there is a hot threat.
I’m not anti-sheepdog, but I am not a sheepdog.
Sheep, dog, and wolf. Some dogs are working dogs (sheepdogs); but not all are. But even the most pampered lap dog (not saying anyone here is such) will go for the jugular when cornered.
Tom Waits wrote a lyric “Its the same with Men, as with Horses and dogs. Nothing Wants to Die.”
That’s the rock-solid truth. Just the question will be when will you fight, when you first see the ball drop, or only when you realize its too late?