Libertarian Girl sees it just about the same as I do.
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I want my son to marry that girl.
I wan’t my DAUGHTER to marry that girl! 😉
I’m pro-choice on abortion (as I am on just about everything), but being pro-life is a completely understandable position. I am morally opposed to abortion myself, it is just that I have no desire to turn my personal morals into law.
Yep, I’m pro life, and I see all abortion as infanticide.
I’m also fully aware of the black market, and know that making my morals into law won’t help anything, and frankly lead to MORE death, which is deeply counter-productive.
Just curious, as I’m unfamiliar with Libertarian positions on such things – are either of you against laws against murder?
Of course I am.
The big difference in my opinion is the ease of concealing the crime, and the potential harm to the mother from an abortion in a non-accredited medical facility, as well as the number of pregnancies that spontaneously abort.
It is certainly a murky gray area, and one that I personally struggle with.
It’s hard to argue with what you are saying, Proudhillbilly. On moral principles I agree with you. What it comes down to for me is that abortion has wide public acceptance in today’s society (as well as wide public contempt). Roughly 150 million people see it as ok, whereas I’m guessing there are probably only a couple thousand psychopaths who think murder is ok (even most murderers know what they did is wrong). My libertarian position is not to tell millions and millions of people what to do with their lives.
Actually, the “back alley abortion” myth was outed by its own creator years ago as largely made up in order to get people to support legal abortion. One of NARL’s founders, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who later fought the abortion he helped legalize and profit from said in an interview:
“We claimed that between five and ten thousand women a year died of botched abortions,” he said. “The actual figure was closer to 200 to 300 and we also claimed that there were a million illegal abortions a year in the United States and the actual figure was close to 200,000. So, we were guilty of massive deception.”
And it’s largely irrelevant since it’s not unusual for legal abortion mills to operate to sub-par standards – it’s just not reported. Gosnell is an anomaly only because he was mentioned occasionally in a couple news outlets, not because he doesn’t have company. At one time the death certificates of those who died of complications of legal abortions were being scanned and posted on the web – I can’t find them right now. And often it isn’t listed as COD because the common practice is to get the woman away from the mill so that if anything happens abortion won’t be directly linked.
As for rape and incest – about 2% result in pregnancy. And that 2% is as human as the other 98%
While it is correct that the DEMAND has to be lessened, saying we shouldn’t outlaw it because it will just go on is the same as saying we shouldn’t outlaw murder in big cities because it will still happen. It is still our responsibility to stand up for and defend those who are innocent, defenseless, and voiceless.
I heard a proposition once that I’m rather in favor of, and it is the only, ONLY form of abortion that I would support.
If a woman goes in to get an abortion, don’t just remove the baby. Remove EVERYTHING. Ovaries and uterus, possibly redirect the urethra out through the rectum and sew the rest. You’ve demonstrated that you’re incapable of caring for a child already, there’s no reason you should be allowed to create another one.
I support the rights of the unborn not to be butchered and forgotten.
She does make an excellent point that to eliminate abortion, we have to eliminate the demand, not the supply. At the same time, if back-alley illegal abortions, with their high rate of mortality for the mothers, are the only option, that doesn’t bother me.
The next time I have to deal with some infanticidal psycho wench, I will have to remember to look for “Abortion Survivors” on YouTube.
That you suggest a woman be put through that is despicable enough that I’m almost afraid to ask if your butchery would also apply to victims of rape and incest.
Abortions due to “rape and incest” already account for fewer than 2% of all abortions performed, and I think even that total would drop when the stigma is removed from adoption.
I have met people who only exist because their mother was raped. I have a roommate who believes he probably would have been aborted. Medical science has advanced to the stage that it should never be necessary for a child to die to preserve the life of the mother.
You want to reduce pregnancies due to rape? Get rid of the stigma of a woman admitting she’s been raped. Men need to band together and agree that we will protect rape victims.
And we need to be punishing rapists like the vermin they are.
God reserves a place in Hell for anyone who believes that it’s ok for a girl who’s been raped by her father to die getting a back-alley abortion. I truly pray for your immortal soul. I truly do.
Why does a girl who is raped by her father need to have a back-alley abortion?
Why does she NEED to have an abortion? Is the unfortunate child of such an event so repugnant to you that you want to have them exterminated?
Brilliant sum-up, and equally brilliant analysis!
I love how she’s morally pro-life, but acknowledges that banning the practice WILL NOT end the debate OR fix the underlying problem. Also that when pro-abortion* folks talk about “women’s rights”, they trample the rights of those who CANNOT speak for themselves. It reminds me of the Jim Crow South: blacks could not speak for themselves because they had no legal standing – how long did slavery persist, again?
(* – I will not call them “pro-choice”. The short reason: Planned Parenthood. A slightly longer version: PP provides pregnancy tests and breast and pelvic exams, so it touts itself as a medical service provider. Fair enough. HOWEVER, if a girl/woman goes in with a “pregnancy problem”, their staff tends to discuss non-abortive options [read: “choices”] ONLY if they’re LEGALLY REQUIRED to do so, and even then will STRONGLY pressure to abort. They’re “pro-choice” as long as the choice is abortion. It rings awfully similarly to “I’m pro-2A … as long as we’re talking about muskets.”)
What happens to most unwanted children when they grow up? Neglect, abuse, abandonment, beginning life in the adoption/foster care system libertarians love to criticize, a generally shitty childhood leading to emotionally stunted adults with a higher than average propensity to be criminals? More welfare families? And how many pro-lifers spend time getting familiar with the real mental states of mothers seeking abortions beyond the stereotypical callous bitch?
I am morally against abortion, but there is a whole society’s worth of problems that need to be addressed before abortion should even be an issue worth debating front and center. This isn’t black and white infanticide vs. sunshiny Leave It To Beaver nuclear families.