This article is just too funny.
The pistol used by a disgruntled designer to kill a former co-worker outside the Empire State Building on Friday is among the more lethal handguns on the American firearms market.
Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said the shooter, Jeffrey T. Johnson, 58, used a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol that held eight rounds. Law enforcement officials said Mr. Johnson bought the pistol in Sarasota, Fla., in 1991. Mr. Kelly later identified the gun’s manufacturer as Star, a Spanish company that is no longer in business. Mr. Johnson did not have a concealed-carry or residential permit in New York, so his possession of the weapon was illegal in New York City, according to city officials.
The .45-caliber semiautomatic was the standard sidearm for the American armed forces for much of the 20th century. The semiautomatic feature means that the gun reloads automatically after the trigger is pulled and a round is fired; it fires larger rounds than most handguns, making it difficult to handle, but powerful.
“If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re probably not going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn with it,” said Joseph F. King, a former United States Customs Service special agent. But, he added, “If you can put a round in center mass of the body, or the head, he’s probably not going to make it.” The firearm, powerful as it may be, is not the subject of much of the debate about gun control.
LOL, I won’t lie, my chest puffed up a little from the smoke being blown up my ass, as I’m carrying a .45 right now. Still its bullshit. Ballistics tests really show that .45 ACP and 9×19 really aren’t that different. Also when compared to most pistol loads .45 ACP runs under much lower SAAMI pressures than most other cartridges, making its recoil impulse a LOT less than most rounds, so even tho its big and powerful, its fairly mild to shoot. Not that I expect somebody at the New York Times to be able to grasp any of that.
Also does anybody know their Stars that well? I assumed when I heard 8-shot .45 that it was an M1911 or a SIG P220, or maybe a S&W 45006. I don’t know Stars that well, It could be their kinda-sorta 1911 clone, or maybe its something else. I know the M1911-type gun is 7+1.
Still what’s hilarious is Joan Peterson’s take on this:
The gun used by the shooter was purchased legally in Florida. New York has very strict gun laws but people intent on getting guns know they can go to states where it is easy to buy a gun.
Yep, according to Joan, he went down to Florida to buy a gun with intent to murder his former Boss…back in 1991.
You gotta love the antis, they’re so knowledgeable on what gun laws should be passed, and how that will help us….and they do this with ZERO working knowledge of how any gun laws actually work.
If he bought the pistol legally in Florida, that means he was a Florida resident at the time. He then ILLEGALLY brought it into NYC when he moved there, and years later when he was fired from his job, decided to ILLEGALLY carry it, and ILLEGALLY murder his former boss.
Joan might be evil enough to know the laws and circumstances and use it to push the “Iron Pipeline” argument for taking liberal gun states and forcing them to confine with the anti-freedom shithole laws because THEY have horrible violent crime problems.
Somebody in the comments was kind enough to supply her the data (PDF), which point out that NYC is no different than any other place in America. Criminals get their guns locally, and the guns that come from out of state are small, and given the time-to-crime numbers, its most likely those guns were stolen or illegally transferred to criminals AFTER the owner had MOVED to New York.
Remember, if my collection gets stolen, a bunch of my guns would trace to Maine and New Hampshire, and the gun I’m carrying would trace to Texas. Doesn’t mean I’ve done anything illegal, or that there is an “Iron Pipeline” just means the ATF doesn’t have their dirty fingers in every aspect of my life.
Criminals will get their guns, the question is, why are we disarming the good guys?
Hmm. That article is… Oh, NYT. Yeah. Star is a step above Llama, but… really hardly one of the more deadly handguns on the market. And 8-shot. I don’t know. Most Stars in .45ACP I have seen are 6-round mags, so 6+1 guns. Not sure what model is 7+1.
But man, one step above Llama is, you know, like 2 above Iver Johnson.
Don’t let Wally hear you dissin’ Iver Johnson! He’s got like a Dozen of ’em!
12 IJs? Woah, that must be like… two, three hundred bucks! 😉
On the whole 45 energy thing – I don’t get it either. It’s like up to 25% more energy than a 9×19. Hardly amazing, and its distribution is longer so felt recoil is just different. Don’t get the whole thing. A 1970s .357mag revolver kicks both their butts (esp with no reciprocating parts) and still isn’t radically more energy-wise (35%), but the press doesn’t care to know.
I’ve spent some time with a Llama. It was okay, but my personal belief is if you are going to go ubercheap a wheelgun is a better approach.
And I think I’ll carry an IJ tomorrow, just because!
I’ve spent some time with a Llama too! I recommend standing on a milking stool to get a better angle, and making sure the Llama is penned in good so he doesn’t spook!!! 😉
Hold on…
“If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re probably not going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn with it,”
I thought this statement was supposed to be about the killer’s .45, not NYPD’s G19s :v
Here’s a Star Model P in .45 ACP that’s 7 + 1:
http://www.cruffler.com/review-October-01.html
It strikes me as just the kind of cruddy backwater knockoff that appeals to me.
Regarding the opinions about the characteristics of .45 caliber handguns, I do have to wonder why these papers don’t hire at least one reporter who knows something about firearms. My pocket 9mm produces a lot more felt recoil than my Govt. model 1911. My Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Magnum feels good, thanks to the shape of its grip and its weight. The list could go on. After all, there are dedicated science reporters, financial reporters, diplomatic reporters, and so on. Why not a firearms reporter?
I lol’d at the ‘recoil’ too. 1911s have a pretty comfortable recoil, it’s not snappy and definitely not hard to hit something with. Those little pocket .380s and 9mms can be more of a handful, especially if they’re polymer based.
What makes you think the science reporters know any science? Heck, the religion reporters don’t know anything about religion, either.
The way it’s written, it almost sounds like it belongs in the Onion. But truth is more humorous than fiction.
“you’re probably not going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn” Yeah, if you’re pointing it at the ground. Or the barn is half a mile away (and maybe even then!)
“I can’t think of a current law that would have banned the weapon” Then, by God, make one up!
To be fair, if the barn is a mile away, and the shooter doesn’t know about hold-over they might miss with that wide-arcing trajectory of .45 ACP vs supersonic 9×19 😀
I’ve been shooting .45ACP for 40 years. I own the beloved M1911A1, an HK 45c USP, and a Springfield XD .45 Service. I am quite capable of hitting things much, much smaller than “…the broad side of a barn.” The so-called professionals of the NYPD seem to need a tad bit more range time.
*blink* *blink*
*facepalm*
Isn’t that something like a car? If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re going to run into the broad side of a barn. How about stoves? If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re going to burn yourself. The list goes on. Tools require skillful use. This reminds me of Jeff Cooper’s remarks on the subject. In the Age of the Common Man, anything that requires skill is seen as undemocratic.
True. I was commenting more on the fact that; a) the comparison was made in a way that implied that this is unique to .45s and not other guns; b) it doesn’t take very much knowledge to hit a man-sized target at 8-15 feet; and c) that it was made at all in this particular case, considering that it was the “highly trained” police that were the Only Ones that shot bystanders.
A man sized target who was STANDING STILL!
I assumed from the news reports that it was some sort of running shootout, and even at short range shooting on the move and/or at a moving target does get rather difficult….but that wasn’t the case. This was essentially the easiest part of the police training….minus that if they didn’t make the shot they might get shot themselves.
“Yep, according to Joan, he went down to Florida to buy a gun with intent to murder his former Boss…back in 1991.”
No no no…. You’ve got it ALL wrong. You see, the company that he worked for didn’t design woman’s accessories, they designed the only working time machine. His boss was going to let the cat out of the bag, so he sneaked into the time machine, set it for 1991, drove to Florida, bought that fine specimen of a 1911 clone (80th year anniversary edition, no doubt), drove back to New York, hopped back in the time machine and went BACK TO THE FUTURE! to stop the boss man from leaking the info about the time machine. You see, if this information got out, chaos and pandemonium will wreak havoc on society. Now, his boss already knew that anyone that leaks the time machine information would be killed by the secret society of time machine builders…….Well Crap, I just told you I guess I’m ne… a;ljs’gf’ [aopsdhi g'[;aosng’ ;jdfa;osiugie isdfosdihfosighs jiosdfjosidfjos.
Scratch that, time machines don’t exists. I have to go now.
So NYPD killed John Connor? Or was that just Kyle Reese?
I’m thinking Greg Camp has the right pistol. Just checked my old Jane’s Gun Recognition Guide, and the Star Company made their 1911 Model “Star Super” in 4 different calibers. The Super A was in 9mm Largo, Super B was in 9mm Luger, the Super M was in .38 Auto (maybe the .38 Super?) and the Super P was in .45 ACP. There was also a Full Auto Machine Pistol called the MD in 9mm Largo. They were made from right after WW2 up until the mid-60’s. The quality to me said “Okay for Military Service.”
Now as to his buying the pistol in question, a bunch of those old Stars came on the market back in the late 80’s, when Spain decided to get on the Euro 9mm Luger Standard. But Spain went with Llama, so Star eventually faded away. The .45’s were always the hardest to find, since most of the pistols were MilSurp, and the Spanish Military was wedded to the 9mm Largo for a long time. In fact, a buddy of mine has one of the Largos. But I can see him buying one easily from a Gun Show if he was living down in Florida.
Also, there was a couple of stories that pointed out that he served in the Coast Guard in the early 70’s, so he would have been trained on the 1911’s as part of his duties.
Of course, he’s still a Back Shooting Son of a Bitch who deserved to be put on the Slab, but he did have the Skills and the Ability to use a 1911 Clone.
Now if the NYPD only knew how to shoot their Glocks…..
Never handled one, but I’ve read and heard that the Stars LOOK a lot like an M1911, but there is no grip safety, and the trigger is not a sliding shoe, but an actual tilting trigger system. No idea how else different the fire control group is. I do know the barrel lockup is 1911 pattern.
Also I read a story saying he had a 7-shot magazine, fired 5 shots into his former boss (one in the head and 4 while he lay on the ground) and cops recovered the gun with one in the mag and one in the chamber.
Yup, Model P.
Star, Astra and Llama all ripped the 1911 off (and also the Browning 25 and 32 pistols, and S&W revolvers, although Llama did make one revolver that looks more like a Colt, the Astra Constable is close to a PPK…).
They come in anything from 22 (blowback, the Llama has a grip safety, the Star doesn’t) to 380 to 9mmP to 45. The full sized ones I own in general have a magazine safety.
This one sounds like a PD maybe — compact 45. Poor man’s 1911.
And docstrange… the Iver Johnson 380 (and Colt Pony) were Star Model Ds.