Thought I’d share this little exchange over at the Ceasefire Oregon blog. Baldr had to bring in a guest poster because posting twice a week was just too much given Baldr’s endeavors of making hand-made posters and pushing plywood boxcars. Sebastian cuts through the bull with this comment:
If they are only good for killing people, why let the police have them? If the police need them for self-defense, then why should I be prohibited from having them, given I use my Glock for the purpose of self-defense from the same criminal element the police deal with.
Of course this is the truth, if guns are just for killing (and as I have asked before “What’s Wrong with Killing?”, hop over there for review and discussion of that loaded statement) then why do we allow armed police to patrol every city and town in the country? Do you dive into the bushes or ditches when you see a police cruiser drive by? Wouldn’t you id they were a mobile execution force?
Sebastian is 100% correct, police side-arms are defensive tools, carried to be used in deadly force situations that arise out of surprise. Baldr took time out of his VERY busy day to respond:
@ Sebastion: are you seriously trying to compare your daily life to the duties of a policeman? Police, as part of their job, put themselves in harm’s way, and as a result they must be well armed. Still, I haven’t heard of the typical beat cop using a high-capacity clip with their handgun. The exception is SWAT teams, which take on the worst of the worst situations and need to outgun the bad guys. The typical law-abiding citizen will hardly be in such a situation, and has not reasonable need for such weaponry.
First did you see the straw-man? Guest poster Penny was talking about guns and magazines, Sebastian was talking about guns and magazines, and now Baldr is taking about the job of police. Apples and oranges.
Now first let’s point out that Sebastian carries a Glock 19 as his primary defensive gun. That’s a 15+1 9mm pistol, and the G19, and its larger brother the G17, and their cousins the G22 and G23 are extremely common police side-arms, not-to-mention the 9mm and .40 S&W duty guns that are virtually identical in overall performance and capacity.
Now indeed cops are sent to places where I would chose to avoid. I hear that there has been an assault, or a BOLO in an area I’m staying the hell away, meanwhile cops head TO those places, because its their job. Still I’d love to see data on how many cops go their entire career, where they carry a gun, but never discharge a shot. Furthermore if such data exists, how frequently do cops simply DRAW their gun in the line of duty. By nature of their job they should have a higher rate of deploying and using their guns than those who simply carry as self-defense, but how wide is that gap? (If anybody has some data I can look at I’d LOVE it!)
Another interesting fallacy is dodging into uncharted waters of “high capacity pistol magazines”, Baldr mentions how “police don’t carry them”, implying that he’s referring to the 33 round magazine Jared Laughner was carrying during his short rampage. Baldr is attempting to make a point there, given that most police HANDGUN magazines are under 20 rounds. His point falls flat when his organization and related groups set the magic number at 10 (you can see Baldr’s personal support of that bill here), so again we’re back to Sebastian’s point. Having a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds is somehow more conducive to murder and mayhem, but while most police magazines are less than 20 in capacity, they are almost always more than 12 as well. (With a few exceptions, I know I just read that Raleigh NC carries the M&P45 which only holds 10, keep that article for later reference, also I knew a few departments to carry S&W4006 or related guns which hold 11, and there are still departments that issue single-stack 1911s, and maybe a few that still have revolvers in the armory)
But what else do our police carry, and we’re talking beat cops, not SWAT members. I’ve seen Boston Cops carrying MP5s on regular patrols, those are 30+ round pistol caliber guns. I know a few PDs who carry M&P UMPs in the caliber complimenting their service caliber. So those are the same demonic pistol magazines Baldr is talking about, and not the SWAT exception. Still most common is (go back to that Raleigh article) a rifle! I just found this neat PDF on Police Patrol Rifles If I may except:
It will only take attending one police funeral to realize the additional cost and training is well worth it. The purpose of this research paper is to show that the patrol rifle/carbine is superior to the shotgun and it should become the primary patrol long gun. The evidence will show that the patrol rifle/carbine should not be in the SWAT truck waiting for deployment. Nor should it be in just one specialized vehicle within a police municipalities patrol force. The patrol rifle/carbine needs to be in the passenger compartment of all patrol vehicles. It should be in a gun locking rack that will allow officers immediate access.
Now they mostly talk about a .223 carbine being the most common, and within that the AR-15/M16 pattern, and the Ruger Mini-14 probably make up the lion’s share of Patrol Rifles, and with those the 30 round magazine is the standard fair. Many Police are adopting this either locked in the passenger compartment or in the truck of your standard patrol car.
Again is this a defensive weapon, or a murder weapon?
Still let’s get back to that first fallacy. I’m not talking about duties or jobs here, I’m just talking about the tools themselves. Sure a cop is going to be called out to deal with dangerous situations…but who calls them?
That’s right, regular people, like you and I. Frequency be damned, every situation where police are deploying weapons there are people there too, and the people are almost always there BEFORE the cops arrive, and usually the people who called the cops.
I’m not a cop, and I have all the respect in the world for them, but I have no desire to BE a cop. Still most situations cops are in I can be in. Furthermore, I won’t be doing things like serving warrants or doing traffic stops, cops in uniform aren’t generally being robbed, raped, or mugged.
We’ll call that a wash, and I’ll just say that the weapons my local police use for their defense, and the defense of others should be just as available to me for the EXACT same reason.
The Joyce puppets know that too, they just don’t want to admit to it.
