So Breda links to this picture. In it a young woman with short hair (I won’t judge, but I think we should make note of it) is holding a sign lamenting that “Its Sad as a Culture we are more comfortable with two men holding guns than Holding hands”.
The fallout was pretty predictable. Breda said: “…no one will ever call the cops on you if you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend.”
I related this story (Not 100% on the details, if somebody can correct me please do in the comments): “there is a famous case here where a man’s coat was blown by the wind as he walked down the street. The only person to see his firearm was a cop walking a beat. The man’s permit was requested and produced, and the day went on. When his permit was up for renewal he was refused for “bad Judgement”, and he needed to get rid of all his guns (remember Massachusetts permits are to OWN GUNS!)
He did later spend several thousand dollars and many days in court to get his permit back (IIRC he still cannot legally carry concealed, but he was able to keep his guns)
Final note, at no point was this man charged with a crime, as he had committed none.”
Tam Chimed in with this: “I wonder when was the last time the person in this photograph got gunned down by the cops in a Las Vegas Costco for the crime of holding hands?”
Now to be totally clear I think there is problems on BOTH sides of this issue, and frankly I’m amazed at what a rift between the Gay Rights and Gun Rights Crowds there is. (Thankfully that is Not 100% True) Discrimination and denial of rights should not make a difference to anybody, its ALL wrong. That of course isn’t the case today. You have this woman who is concerned about gay rights and is perfectly willing to toss gun-rights under the bus to further her agenda. We also have the very real allegations of Racism that are coming out of the Obama Administration (Trinity United Church of Christ, and The New Black Panther Party are the two larger controversies) Seems that some people are claiming certain discriminations are preferable to others. To further conflate the tin ear of people a woman calling herself Lydia said the following:
You’re right, they won’t call the cops if I walk down the street holding hands. Instead I fear being beaten and raped so the narrow minded can “make a woman out of me”.
You have the 2nd Amendment. I have decades of legal hurdles before I can ever be seen as equal under the law.
In too many states I can be fired for being gay. I can be denied housing for being gay. In Alaska discrimination against me solely for being gay is still completely legal.
When we have equal rights, then we can talk about the annoyance of being arrested.
I have no idea if Lydia is the woman in the photograph, but she is claiming to be gay. Still first up I will note that she is legally protected from rape and assault, no matter the reason of the assault. I will note that in most cases a person lawfully carrying a gun being proned out on the sidewalk and having their property confiscated often has no recourse, nor does somebody who is detained while lawfully carrying in a state that does not require a permit (It could be said that a permit may be requested in a state where it is necessary to open carry) I will also note that the Police Chief in my story was not charged or otherwise punished for his actions, nor were his actions illegal.
Also all of her mentioned discriminations may happen to gun owners as well. When I rented I was always concerned that my landlord might refuse to renew my lease because a gun owner lived on their property. I do not share with coworkers that I carry while at work out of fear that company policies might be amended, or actions might be taken against me. As a tax payer and a citizen I consider myself a part-owner of places like the US Post Office, and I am disgusted that I could be arrested for carrying within said building, despite it being 100% legal for me to carry on the sidewalk outside said building. So the “When we have equal rights, then we can talk about the annoyance of being arrested.” strikes me as a statement of concern for ONLY the rights she is currently concerned with. DISGUSTING! I’ll end with a poem:
They came first for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
The most ironic thing is if Lydia was being assaulted (be they gay bashers or otherwise…it doesn’t matter to me, “Hate Crime” is as just a foolish metric as “Gun Death”) I would absolutely see it cause to draw my firearm, and potentially use it.
Weer’d. You have to consider that Lydia’s comments are colored by her own experiences as a gay woman. She has experience with the very real realities of being a gay woman. She does not, on the other hand, have experience with what it’s like to be persecuted for being a gun owner. She’s a good friend of Breda’s and IIRC is not yet a gun owner. One thing I often notice about non-gun owners is that they don’t truly understand the bigotry we face, nor do they really have a grasp of just how much of a convoluted clusterfuck the gun laws really are, even in states like DE.
Also, I think the sole reason we don’t often see pro-gun folks being violently attacked by virtulently anti-gun bigots is because their would-be victims are armed. You don’t hear of PinkPistols members being gay-bashed either. I believe many of them would commit violence against us (or have someone else do so) if the opportunity presented itself and we didn’t have the means to fight back. Just look at the violent tendencies of many of the anti-gunners you and I have had the misfortune of encountering. These are people who routinely express a desire to see us dead or at least harmed, just like the gay bashing bigots.
Well I know for a fact that you have been threatened online by anti-rights bigots just as I have. Its hardly the same as people who have been looked in the face and called “Faggot” or those who have been physically assaulted, I’m just noting the desire is there to cause us harm for our contrary beliefs. Also the video of the SEIU thug being a republican sign-holder at a rally shows that people like us CAN be attacked simply for beliefs, no different than lifestyle. The oldest trick in the book for “Settling” an argument is to beat the opponent into submission. It doesn’t happen to gun owners as a rule because we don’t LET it happen. Attempt to harm me to settle a disagreement will not go well as I will fight back, and that may result in the death of a bigot.
Still even if what you say is true about Lydia, my statements still stand. Its one thing to be the woman who held the card. It’s a catchy slogan indeed, and if it was made out of total ignorance, that can be forgiven. What Lydia did was wade through dozens of comments pointing out the fallacy of said catchy slogan to make the above quoted remark.
Maybe she’s just being terribly short sighted, but I see her statements as “My Rights First, THEN we’ll see about yours”
I’m not saying anything about the gay cause, as I personally see the two things (as well as racial prejudice, religious persecution, politically motivated violence ect ect ect) can all be done simultaneously.
And hell for the whole “I could be raped or assaulted for being gay” part, packing a pistol will work well to protecting the rights of being gay as WELL as asserting the right to go armed.
Also the understanding that the person raping you is violating the law and can be jailed once caught can convicted, very clearly shows the reason why we should be armed, and armed at all times.
I’ll simply say the same thing I pointed out at Breda’s: Location, location, location.
As a generalization, MA is gay friendly and hostile to gun-owners, VA is gun-owner friendly and hostile to gays. In both states the legal system has built in support for the hostilities and strong protection for the other.
I had a guy go apeshit on me at a party once because he overheard me use the word “gun” in casual conversation with someone else. I’m still not sure why that made him want to come after me & beat the shit out of me, but my use of the “G-word” is definitely what triggered his rage. He was restrained and thrown in an upside room with no need for any actual violence.
I’ve also been threatened, to my face, by an extremely irate man who was insistent that I would never be allowed to bring a gun into his house and had better not ever carry in his presence and I’d better not dare try. As for the latter, well concealed means concealed 🙂
As for Lydia, we’ll see. I’m not so fast to write off those who I still think can be brought into the pro-freedom, pro-gunnie fold, especially when she’s got a friend like Breda to help facilitate that transition. I think this is a simple case of her not necessarily being bigoted against gun ownership, but rather hyperfocused on her pet civil rights issue to the exclusion of other rights/groups. That’s somewhat unfortunate but it’s not all that unusual.
I’m a pretty easygoing guy and I like to give folks some time and the benefit of the doubt before casting them aside as “not on my side” It takes time to break down walls, even individually. Some folks you can try for a while and then conclude definitively that they’re anti-rights bigots, but we should careful not to paint others with that brush till positions have been hashed out, there’s ample evidence of where they stand, and they’ve proven incapable of rational thought.
You are likely correct, though calling it her “pet” civil rights issue may be a bit harsh. It’s easy for a person to hyperfocus on a civil rights issue that directly, immediately, and profoundly affects them, to the exclusion of ones that don’t. It’s not right – rights are rights and should all be protected equally – but it’s a natural reaction and is easy for anyone to do without even realizing it, which is why it’s not all that unusual.
Exactly what I was getting at Jake. Poor choice of words on my part, as use of the term “pet” wasn’t meant to be pejorative in any way but likely came across as such. It’s human nature to focus on that which most affects you.
Well as an Anti-freedom type and rather bigoted myself, I know not to write off anybody. I will say that if somebody steps on my toes and disregards my rights, I’ll be available to them for information or debate, but its their job to come to me, not me to peruse them.
Forcing a closed mind open is a messy operation.
“You’re right, they won’t call the cops if I walk down the street holding hands. Instead I fear being beaten and raped so the narrow minded can “make a woman out of me”.
Sounds like a good reason to carry a gun. As the Pink Pistols are fond of pointing out “Armed Gays don’t get bashed!”
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Discrimination is discrimination – it does not matter if it is being targeted against people of a certain skin tone, people of a certain religion, people carrying certain items, or people of certain sexual orientations. To be certain, some of us have a more-vested interest in ensuring that certain forms of discrimination are squashed as much as possible, whenever possible (in that homosexuals have a significantly greater personal interest in getting rid of gay-bashing than I do – not that I am opposed to such activities, merely that I have no direct dog in the fight), but, in the end, it does not really matter who is being attacked.
Seems as though a lot of people have a problem with that concep, though, with with folks fighting for a “woman’s right to chose” to have an abortion, but actively opposing a woman’s right to choose to defend herself. It would be great if one of those folks would ever bother to explain the logical basis for those kinds of beliefs…